Patty Vest: Welcome to Sagecast, the podcast of Pomona College. I'm Patty Vest. Mark Wood: And I'm Mark Wood. Patty Vest: In these extraordinary times, we're coming to you from our various homes as we all shelter in place. Mark Wood: This season on Sagecast we're talking to Pomona faculty and alumni about the personal, professional, and intellectual journeys that have brought them to where they are today. Patty Vest: Today, we're talking with Assistant Professor of History and Africana Studies, Ousmane Traore, who studies the history of imperialism and colonialism in Africa. Mark Wood: Welcome, Ousmane. Thanks for taking the time to talk with us. Ousmane Traore: Thank you so much. Thank you. Mark Wood: So, how are you adjusting to life in the time of coronavirus? Life in cyberspace, sort of... really? Ousmane Traore: Yeah, I think this is a very strange and plucked world of ours. I think it gives me a time to think about everything else besides academia. I am on sabbatical this year while I'm finishing my book, my first book dedicated to my research obviously. So I mean, this is very strange at times, not only allowed me to finish the book because I am on sabbatical, but also to think about our world. I realize now we are living in a planetary village. It became even real. So in my teaching, I bring a lot of global perspective in my classroom. Ousmane Traore: And I think this period, this moment in our life we're going through helped me even to think about that, how our world is really connected and make even through that, we are living in a planetary village. I mean, for historians, this is a strange moment, but it's also a period that helps us to think about our world. Yeah. Patty Vest: Ousmane, tell us a little bit about your earlier years. Your childhood household was not only multilingual, but also you consider yourself multi-cultural. Can you expand a little bit on that and how did those experiences shape your world view? Ousmane Traore: I was born in Senegal in 1972. My father is from Mali and my mother is from Mauritania. And so, they come from different countries and they speak different language. It was very interesting, because I was born in a household where since my parents were not able... were not speaking the same language, we adopted the language of the country we were born in. I mean, my siblings and I. So we speak in the household with three different languages. So, whenever my cousins from my father's side come home, we would speak my father's language. And whenever my cousins from my mother's side come in the house, we would speak my mother's language. Ousmane Traore: But when we are among ourselves, we would speak another language. So that's how we were raised to speak different languages. And plus, I was sent to school, my brothers and me, we were sent to school and also at school, you speak French. But we do not have the right to speak French in the household, because my parents were not educated. They did not go to French school, but by respect, we cannot speak French. And French also has always been considered as a language of the former colonizer, but the French were now... We were independent since 1960, but we kept French as our educational language. Ousmane Traore: So I kept French out of the household, school. So in my household, we would only speak Senegalese or Mauritanian or Malian native language. Mark Wood: So you grew up basically quadralingual? Ousmane Traore: Basically, yeah. We can say that. Mark Wood: I'm a big believer in the advantages that people who start off speaking multiple languages have. Have you found that that's given you advantages in life? Ousmane Traore: That's an excellent question. I never thought of it from that perspective, because for me, it was not something very original or something very particular, because most of the households in Senegal were set up that way. If I take this group of friends, I can tell that... I can find some who used to speak more than four languages. So, sometimes seven languages. Mark Wood: Wow. Ousmane Traore: But you are right, and while I was growing... Now I can looking back say, "Oh, maybe this kind of setting helped me also to be well-prepared for my..." Yeah, helped me to... How would I put it? I think this way as a question is excellent, because today if you're asking my citizenship, I won't say I'm a Senegalese or I am a Malian or I'm... I usually say I'm a global citizen. And I think I was prepared very early on by being born in a house, multi-cultural and multi-language... Yeah, multi-cultural household. [inaudible 00:06:44]. Mark Wood: So, you've added English to that of course. How many languages do you speak now? Ousmane Traore: I mean, besides my African languages, I mean, now adding the French, I would say it is about five. Yeah. Mark Wood: Well, that's about four more than most Americans, unfortunately. Patty Vest: Ousmane, so tell us. So, you have a joint appointment in history and Africana Studies. When did you discover your interest in these areas? Ousmane Traore: Excellent question. I think it's from high school. So really when I was in high school that I discovered my abilities in history as a discipline. When you grow up in a very poor country, the only way for us to travel was reading books. I mean, and I spent a lot of time in libraries, trying to find libraries in my... and it was not. It was not obvious to find libraries in Senegal. Ousmane Traore: I mean, when you come from a very poor country, living in a poor region, it's not obvious to have a library everywhere. For us in my region, I think it was a luxury. As it was some priests, some French priests, a missionary who opened a library in my hometown. And it allowed me to go over there every Wednesday to read. And for me, it was another way to escape, to travel in reading books. I think that's the way I discovered my passion for history and yeah, I remember my school teacher always telling to my other friend, "You should do like Ousmane, because every time he writes homework, he always adds new information. He always tries to get out of the books, out of the topic and bring..." and I think I did it from all the readings I was covering in that library. Ousmane Traore: So that's where I really discovered that I have a passion maybe for history, and yeah. Mark Wood: So, did you know even then that's what you wanted to do with your life, or did... There's a difference between loving history and realizing, "I want to be a researcher and teacher," and did you have mentors along the way who- Ousmane Traore: Not at all. Not at all. My grades was really good when I was in high school, in history especially. But when I get my baccalaureate at the age of 18, I went to the university. But at the university, I decided to do a low. But after three classes, "Oh, this is not what I want." I decided to go back to the History department and say, "Hey, I would like to do history." And over there, I realized that it was not easy because we were 1,000 freshmen in history, as freshman. It was very, very, very selective, but I didn't have [inaudible 00:10:27], "Okay, this is what I want to do, I'm going to do it." Ousmane Traore: So, and I did remember 1,000, and it's a very selective... In Senegal, it's not like here where you can have the... because I will give you a kind of [inaudible 00:10:45]. The university, the capacity of the university was 25,000 students. This is the capacity, the size. But we were 50,000 students. So every year, they have to cut. So if you fail, you were expelled. So, but since I wanted to history, I said, "Okay, I will take the challenge." And I decided to go, so we were 1,000. In the second year, we were maybe 600 and in the third year we were I remember, 30. Patty Vest: Wow! Ousmane Traore: And the last year, we were 15 graduating. Mark Wood: Wow. Patty Vest: Wow. Ousmane Traore: So it was very selective, yeah. Yeah. That's a sort of way to say that education is very expensive. Not expensive in the sense of money, but sometimes you need to have a little bit of passion and lack. But also, you need lack. You can be very talented, but if you don't have lack sometimes, you can be left out. And I have many friends who were really, really good and they were left out. Unfortunately, that's how it works in poor countries. And education is a luxury for us. And I think from that, I became historian because I was lucky enough to finish my college and continue to further my education in history. Patty Vest: Ousmane, so you've told us how you found your love for history. So then how did you find your way into academia? Ousmane Traore: After four years in college in Senegal, when I finished my fourth year, I was able to put some money, to save some money. I told my friends that I'm still very hungry. I need more. I will not stop my studies. I would like to further my education. I would like to go to France to further my education. I would like to go to a high education, I would like to get a doctoral degree. Because usually, when you finish your fourth years, many of my friends, many of my peers, you will become a teacher or a professor in high school. Ousmane Traore: That's not what I wanted. I said, "I would like to further my education, I would like to push more." So, I contacted some French universities. They sent me some applications. I don't know anyone in France, you don't have a grant. But I was dreaming, I was dreaming big. I don't know anyone in Paris, I don't know anyone in France, but I have to go. So since I saved some money and I get some chunk of money from my family, a small amount of money. Sorry, a small amount of money from my family. I decided to go to Paris. So I get the visa, everything was ready and the day of my travel, I went to the airport and I realized that, "Wow, where I'm going?" This is very complicated, I don't know anyone in Paris, I don't know anyone in France. What am I going to do? And [crosstalk 00:14:19]- Patty Vest: It's a big jump. Ousmane Traore: Huh? Patty Vest: It's a big leap. Ousmane Traore: Yeah, it's a big jump. And I didn't have also enough money. I only have my flight ticket. I was in the lining to register my luggage, to take my luggage. And there were two young boys in front of me in the line. And they were in a conversation, and all of the sudden, one of them talking to his friend says, "Oh, look at that guy over there. He's a pilot of the Senegalese President. Maybe the President is traveling today." So I heard that from that conversation, and I just... I walked toward that guy they were talking about and I introduce myself to that guy and say, "Hey, how you doing? I heard you that you were the pilot of the Senegalese President." Ousmane Traore: He told me, "Yes, I am. What do you want?" Say, "I am going to Paris. Is it possible to have a lift? Is it possible to have a ride, because I only have my ticket, and I don't know what to do in airline place. So if you give me a free ride, maybe once in Paris, I can get reimbursed and use my money to survive at least a month, because I am going over there to further my education." So the guy looked at me, okay, so okay. They say, "Okay, all right. Okay, young boy, can you wait 30 minutes? I'll be back." Ousmane Traore: So, and I was waiting and then he left and came back later and said, "Hey, come with me." So I took all my stuff and he brought me inside, and that's how I was abl to travel for free. And that day, that was not the President who was traveling, but the wife of the President. So I traveled to Paris for free, and once I arrived in Paris, the same day, I was able to go to the agents, the agents where I booked my ticket, the French plane company or whatever. So they were able to reimburse me with the ticket and that's what I used to live at least a month, for a month. Mark Wood: So that's how you survived? Ousmane Traore: That's how I survived. So- Patty Vest: You weren't kidding about luck. Mark Wood: Wow! Yeah. Ousmane Traore: Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. Mark Wood: Luck does play a role, doesn't it? Ousmane Traore: Right, right. So, and [crosstalk 00:16:39]- Mark Wood: Luck and persistence, and a little bit of daring. Patty Vest: If you don't ask, you don't get. Ousmane Traore: Right, right? Yeah. I think, yeah. I still remember that moment and for me, it was very helpful. That was a kind of something, yeah, sometimes you ask someone, it can open a door and help for you to start a bright future. I will never forget about that guy, I will never forget. And I wish today, I always... He's in a corner of my head. I think some day if I go back to Senegal, I used to go to back Senegal now every two years. But in a corner of my head, I would like to go and visit him. "Do you remember that young boy you helped in that airport?" So, yeah. Yeah. Patty Vest: So you know his name? Ousmane Traore: I know his name, yeah. I know his name. Patty Vest: Wow! Ousmane Traore: I'm going to have to do that. Mark Wood: So this story is too interesting to interrupt. Now you're in Paris, you're surviving on the money that you got back from your ticket that you didn't have to use. So where did you go? What university and how did that work out? Ousmane Traore: So usually, when you were in Senegal and would like to go to France to further your education, you have to look at the map and you have to ask around and you have to make sure that the city you will be choosing for your university, you make sure that there are some Senegalese community over there. So, when you arrived, you can get help from them. They can host you in their tiny room for a month or three months until you get a room to rent and start your life. So that's what I did. When I arrived, I know that there was some Senegalese community who were a small Senegalese community. They were students. So, I was able to play and get hosted by some of them in the campus. So, share a tiny room on the campus until I was able to have my own room. And it was- Mark Wood: So you went to the University of Paris? Ousmane Traore: Yeah. It was 200 kilometers from Paris. It's in Northern Paris. Mark Wood: Oh, okay, yeah. Ousmane Traore: It's a city called Lille. That's the way I started my university, in Lille. And I spent maybe three years over there. And after two years, it was very complicated. I didn't have enough money, I have to work hard besides my studies. So at a certain point, I was really tired and say, "Okay, maybe I should stop now and find a job," I was a little bit lost because I haven't yet started my doctoral studies. I remember in 2000, I think it was in 2002, so I have to make a decision. Now I get my Master's degree. I was ready to start my doctoral... my PhD program. So I have a conversation with a professor in Lille, at the University of Lille. Ousmane Traore: Okay, I would like to do this topic on... For my PhD, I would like to start a PhD dissertation, but my topic will be the... This is a very key moment, because I never thought that I would be interested in writing and doing a PhD focusing on the Atlantic slave trade, the slave trade. Because I grow up learning about the topic, in primary school, high school, we always talk about the slave trade. The Atlantic world of slavery, the Transatlantic trade. These are kind of flash... say, "Okay, I need to know more about..." I think I don't know, maybe I met this black diaspora in France. Maybe that's what really prompted the idea to do a topic on slave trade, but I was really interested in that topic. Ousmane Traore: But I took a moment to think about how would I start a doctoral project on slave trade? When you grow up learning about a topic, you felt that you covered everything about it. But I realized that something was missing. There was a missing link. And I was really interested in knowing, so what was the position or the responsibility of Africans in that very traumatic episode of our history? So I have a conversation with this professor at the University of Lille. Say, "I would like to write on this topic, but this is the approach I would like to use. I would like to learn more about the slave trade, but in using an international relations approach." And I remember the conversation was very tense, because he did not like. He said, "No, no, no. We cannot talk about international relations when it comes to Africans because there were kingdoms, there were villagers. We cannot talk about..." and the conversation was very short. Ousmane Traore: I said, "Okay, you know what? I will stop all collaboration here. I don't think that I would like to work with you." And I decided the same year, it was very late, but I decided to apply for the Sorbonne University, for [French 00:23:12] in Paris. I filed an application for the Sorbonne University, and I was admitted. So, I decided to move to Paris. So once at the Sorbonne University, I met a professor who was able to accept to work with me on that topic. So, yeah, I think it was a very clear moment. It was a kind of hunger to understand the role of Africans in the Atlantic slave trade. I really wanted to know. Ousmane Traore: I decided since I was admitted into Sorbonne University, I decided to start that topic. And that which topic became my and is now my specialty. Mark Wood: I mean, it would be hard to find a more important topic in sort of explaining how world history has evolved. Ousmane Traore: Right. Mark Wood: I mean, the slave trade in Africa has touched every country, just about in the world in how it's evolved and how cultures have evolved. I mean, it's a really key moment in world history. Ousmane Traore: Right, right. So that's exactly what I wanted, and I think it is this period is back to where we are in now. I mean, even make even more true the approach I use at that moment, because I really, I sail the Atlantic Ocean as a kind of opportunity for many African countries, kingdoms located on the coast to take advantage of it to build their ethnic state. Very ethnic state, that's how I call it. This is the word I use. So I think I was really driven by that idea. How did they see the Atlantic Ocean? How did they see the arrival of Europeans on the coast? So, I decided, said, "Okay, you know what I am going to do now? I will stop reading all the secondary sources, all the books. And I will take advantage of being here in Paris to use all the archives." Ousmane Traore: So I spent six years of my life, or even... yeah, seven years of my life digging in the French archive. And that's also the best part of my life, because being in Paris and having access, as a Senegalese boy having access to all these primary sources dated from the 16th, 15th, 17th centuries and even to tell you, to give you an anecdote how it was so important for me, I discover my most interesting traditions. All the names, today, my two daughters, the name of my two daughters, you cannot find those names. When I give those names to my daughters, my father would say, "What are these names?" And I told him, these are the real African names. And those names, I discovered those names in those archives kept in Paris. So I came across those names by digging in those primary sources. So, yeah. And even sometimes, my family, they have a hard time to pronounce the two names of my daughters. But these are the real African names, so. Mark Wood: What are their names? Ousmane Traore: So the first name is [Sassondelah 00:26:59]. Mark Wood: Beautiful name. Ousmane Traore: Yeah, Sassondelah, and Sassondelah was a daughter of a king I am interested in, a king who is very central to my topic. And his daughter, Sassondelah, was a kind of... was a diplomat. So I am also interested in how women in the 16th century, 15th century, 17th century would really play a very important role in African history, became diplomat. So, playing the role of diplomat, playing the role sometimes... when negotiation between Europeans and Africans became... met some harder, or became difficult, sometimes women were able to contribute, to appease, if you allow me the word, the conflict and the relations between Europeans and Africans. So I'm very interested in women in diplomacy in my research. So, being in Paris, digging in the archives also helped me to understand better the history of women also in West Africa. Mark Wood: And the second daughter? Ousmane Traore: And my second daughter is [inaudible 00:28:14]. Patty Vest: [inaudible 00:28:14]. Ousmane Traore: So, it was a name I discovered in those archives. But still, people know more about [inaudible 00:28:27]. So, my wife is an American and also she was also in love with that name. She also discovered even before meeting me. So, she discovered that name in a movie she watched when she was in college, in Berkeley. Mark Wood: Beautiful names. Ousmane Traore: Thank you very much. Patty Vest: Ousmane, how did you find yourself to... your way to Claremont and Pomona College? Ousmane Traore: So, the experience at the Sorbonne University was great. I spent my seven beautiful years in Paris at the Sorbonne University, doing this amazing topic, digging in this information, and after I defended my doctoral degree at the Sorbonne University, I decided to go to the United States. Ousmane Traore: All my friends thought that I was crazy, yeah. Seriously. Mark Wood: I mean, no, your friends probably thought you were crazy when you decided to go to Paris, right? So- Ousmane Traore: Right, yeah. Mark Wood: It's a tradition with you. Ousmane Traore: Exactly. Because you can see, the way I speak English, it's very hard for us. Because you grow up in Senegal, speaking French and your native language, and then in France, you guys know that French people are not very good in languages. So, and I don't even say in English. So I didn't have any English. I didn't have any English, that's why all my friends thought that I was crazy. They say, "What are you going to do in the United States?" "I will go over there to teach." So, and I applied, I send some applications. And in 2012, Lewis & Clark College contacted me and they have a visiting position, and they wanted to invite me for six months. And I didn't have any English, [inaudible 00:30:33] but I will go. That was crazy. Ousmane Traore: When I arrived in Oregon, in Portland, which is a beautiful city. This is the first city in the United States where I really spent time, live. It was very rainy, but a very, very nice city. I would always dress as a Senegalese guy, the rain is always... so, yeah. But it was great. So, and when I arrived over there, I remember even three days or a week, because I was worked on my visa while in Paris, and I received in the mail from the secretary of the department, she wrote an email, she [inaudible 00:31:16] asking for the recommended book and required book for my classes. It said, "Can you send me your recommended and requested books for your classes, so we can buy them for the bookstore." But I didn't know what bookstore mean, [inaudible 00:31:37] library. Patty Vest: Right. Ousmane Traore: So, I sent her a list of 40 books. Patty Vest: Oh no! Ousmane Traore: She told me, "Are these the required and recommended books?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, that's what [crosstalk 00:31:53]." Mark Wood: This is beginning to sound like a tough class. Ousmane Traore: Yeah, she sent me another email saying, "Oh, this is a very long list." I said, "Yeah, but that's what I need." So, for me, bookstore means library. Mark Wood: Yeah, right. Ousmane Traore: In the French system, we don't buy books. We just go to the library and borrow. Patty Vest: And go read them, yeah. You borrow. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ousmane Traore: And yeah, she told me, "This is the book for your syllabus?" I don't even know what syllabus mean. So, when I arrived, so when I got to Lewis & Clark, the semester already started. And in my first class, I showed up in my first class with our syllabus. So, I started my class but students were looking at me very... They were something I found from students, they would look at me like, "What is he doing?" So, I just started my class, and at the end of the class, they all, they rushed to the department and they told the chair, "Oh, this professor did not provide us with a syllabus." And the chair came to my office and said, "Ousmane, did you provide them a syllabus?" "What is a syllabus? I don't know what is a syllabus." Ousmane Traore: And he explained me that, "Oh, in the American system, you have to provide a syllabus." Okay. So, now I have to build a syllabus right now. I think that was a great experience to have that invitation from Lewis & Clark for six months and those six months were great. My English was not great at that moment, but students were very... That's what I admire from American students. I mean, I don't think it would have been possible to go to France and teach in a classroom without mastering French very well. I think people won't be even that tolerant. But I felt the American students were very patient, and they... I don't know how to explain, but they were patient and I really appreciated it. Ousmane Traore: It was very hard. Sometimes you would explain something, but it's very... You learned all your science in French, and now you have to explain in another language. That was very hard. Mark Wood: Oh, yeah. Ousmane Traore: Yeah, I spent a beautiful moment over there. It was a beautiful, beautiful stay. Six months, and after six months, they wanted to keep me more. And I stayed roughly two years and a half, I was at Lewis & Clark College. Mark Wood: And did you come to Pomona from Lewis & Clark? Ousmane Traore: After two years and a half, I was I think... The system was very complicated. I needed to take a break. Said, "Okay, I need to go back to Paris." [crosstalk 00:35:07] Yeah. Patty Vest: Where they don't have a syllabus? That syllabus stuff is just- Ousmane Traore: Exactly. Exactly. All that syllabus stuff. Yeah. But I realize also that United States, the high education in the United States was the place where I would like to be. Because I'm focusing on the Atlantic slave trade, discovering also because it's an ongoing question for many Africans living on the continent. What is our history? Our common history with the African-Americans? So, when you come from the continent and focusing on the history of slavery in general, you want to know more about the commonalities between African diasporas and Africans from the continent. So you would like to know more about that history. You would like to know more... The job of historians is to understand the past, to understand, to document of the past, understand of the past, try to have a good guess about the past because it's very hard. Because we used to say that the past is not a foreign country, but maybe people was doing things differently. Ousmane Traore: But you want to know more about that. I think that those questions, I would like to resolve and today, that's what I teach in my classroom. And having been here so now, in the United States teaching and always having in my classes, Americans from different backgrounds and talk about those topics, help me also to know more about my history of my past and the connections between the Americas and Africa. Yeah, so I stayed two years at Lewis & Clark, and then I get another offer from New York, Wagner College, and I moved. I moved back very shortly to Paris, 15 days. After, "I would like to go back to America." Ousmane Traore: So I came back to New York, at the Wagner College, and I taught at Wagner College for four years and after four years, I decided maybe to... I discover the offer and a job offering, a position here at Pomona College. And the position was very interesting, because it was a position on African history and Africana. And this is a dream for when you are African focusing on the Atlantic slave trade and being from Africa. So it's a dream to be able to be in a department where you can focus on African history, but also the way [inaudible 00:38:19] to focus also on Africana Studies. So for me, that was the key. That was the apex of my research, to be in a place where now my own research now will add the Africana Studies aspect. So that's why I think coming to Pomona was a key moment of my scholarship and of my career. Patty Vest: I know you're on leave working on a book. Can you tell us a little bit about your book? Ousmane Traore: So, this is a book that will bring my contribution to the field. I know that many of my colleagues in the other American university are waiting to see my contribution, because I have a huge network, because being in the United States, you participate in these conferences, these international conferences. And you meet these great historians. So this book will present to them, will give to them my position in the history of the Atlantic slave trade. So the book is about a small community in West Africa, Northern Senegal, where I'm from. Ousmane Traore: So I am interested in how that community was able to... How did that community position itself in the Atlantic slave trade? It was a very tricky... because the location of their kingdom was on the main roads of the slave caravans, so their kingdom was used by African slave traders and by European slave traders to take the slaves from the hinterland to the coast. So, their position was very, very complicated. They resisted the Atlantic slave trade, but they did not have the means to really fight against it. So I was interested how they... what kind of resistance or how can I use their position or their participation in the Atlantic trade to frame new paradigm of resistance? Ousmane Traore: They used for example tax barriers, sometimes military means. But at the same times, they use for example, diplomacy as well. So I'm trying to understand that kind of very complicated situation they were in. They positioned themselves in that traffic. So, that's what the book is about. Because there is nothing that was written about them, and I was just crazy about their history, because as I said, while being in Paris, I discovered those documents in Paris. In Senegal, I never learned anything about that community. And so I discovered the history in Paris, in these documents kept for more than now five centuries or even more, sorry. Ousmane Traore: I mean, yeah. So and I wanted to know more about the history. And, yeah, that's what the book's about. So if you wish, to summarize it very quickly, I have two books. I'm working on this book now, but there is another one pending. So one book is focusing on the diplomacy from below. How people from below positioned themselves in the Atlantic slave trade. How did they react to the Atlantic slave trade? In another book pending now, when I am done with this book, I will continue... start with the other one, and the other one will be about the elite. How the elite also take advantage of the Atlantic slave trade. So, I would like to look at those two perspectives. I don't know if that makes sense. Mark Wood: Yes, it does. Patty Vest: And now that will be required reading. Mark Wood: [crosstalk 00:43:12] I'm looking forward to reading [crosstalk 00:43:14]. Ousmane Traore: [inaudible 00:43:14]. Mark Wood: Are you writing in English or in French? Ousmane Traore: Great question. Both books are based on my PhD dissertation at the Sorbonne University. And it doesn't make sense, because to tell you truth, I think being... This comes from my heart. I think at Pomona, really I discovered... I will give you a very quick example. Ousmane Traore: I have a seminar on slavery every year. [inaudible 00:43:51], and it's on slavery, it's called Transatlantic and Trans-Saharan Slave Trades. And this seminar, it lasts three hours. And we read every week 150 pages, and one day students come, students say, "We need more pages." Because at Pomona, what I discover sometimes... When you're a scholar, you would like to... You can be at Pomona. When you're a professor at Pomona, you can be a great scholar and a great teacher. Because most of professors are in some university dedicated only to research. Sometimes, they don't care about teaching. They just do research because they are more... but here at Pomona, you do research and you have the teaching. Ousmane Traore: And you have the good students sometimes, good students, variety of students, the good discussion you can have with graduate students in the graduate university, you can have even better at Pomona. So, to tell you the truth, I mean, even the students today, they shape sometimes the ways in which I approach that book because the book, the way I wrote my dissertation at the Sorbonne University, now for the four years I have been teaching at Pomona, now the book takes another shape because of these discussions I have in the classroom. What I am saying here comes from my heart. When you're a scholar at Pomona and teaching, you can have a blast. Every time after three hours' discussion in that class, I go home and say, I tell my wife, "Oh my gosh. [inaudible 00:45:30] These students are amazing." So they make the professor even smarter. [crosstalk 00:45:36]- Mark Wood: They're as hungry as you were. Ousmane Traore: Huh? Mark Wood: I said, "They're as hungry as you were." Ousmane Traore: Exactly. Exactly. That's [inaudible 00:45:43] great. That's what it is. They totally changed my mind from publishing my book in French. It doesn't make any sense. And then yeah, I was able to translate the manuscript into English. It will be published in English, so students at Pomona [inaudible 00:46:01] the book. So the United States at large also will have access to my scholarship. It doesn't make any more sense to me to publish in French. But I think in the near future, I have this... sorry. I have this kind of relationship to French, but I think I will, since I am teaching here and work here, I will publish more in English. Patty Vest: Any plans of translating into any African languages? Ousmane Traore: [inaudible 00:46:35] Not. This is very [inaudible 00:46:38] the complexity of the continent of Africa, because I mean, even when I was in [inaudible 00:46:44] in Dakar in Senegal, we were required to take some African languages. But even African languages are not really highly taught, well-taught in African universities. At least in Senegal. So we all use Western languages. So, for English for Anglophone Africa and Portuguese maybe for those African countries who speak Portuguese and French for Francophone Africa. So we get our independence, but we kept the European [crosstalk 00:47:26] languages. So if I translate into African languages, nobody will read it. So, but maybe [crosstalk 00:47:26]- Mark Wood: Maybe some day. Ousmane Traore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mark Wood: Well, on that note, we're going to have to wrap this up. This has been a really fun conversation. Thank you, Ousmane. Ousmane Traore: Thank you so much. Mark Wood: We've been talking with Assistant Professor of History and Africana Studies, Ousmane Traore, who studies the history of imperialism and colonialism in Africa. This has been a great conversation, thank you. Ousmane Traore: Thank you so much. Thank you so much guys for giving me this very beautiful opportunity to share my experience. Thank you so much. Patty Vest: Thanks, Ousmane. We're looking forward to both of your books. Ousmane Traore: Thank you very much, yeah. Patty Vest: And to all who stuck with us this far, thanks for listening to Sagecast, the podcast of Pomona College. Stay safe, and until next time.