Patty: The podcast of Pomona College. I'm Patty Vest. Mark: And I'm Mark Wood. This season on Sagecast, we're discussing mentoring stories with Pomona students, professors, coaches and staff who work closely together in the classroom, in the lab and in the field. Patty: Today we're talking with molecular biology major Nicah Vhin Driza, class of '21. And Travis Brown, director of the college's Quantitative Skill Center. Mark: Welcome Nicah and Travis. Travis: Thank you. Nicah: Thanks. Mark: It's great to have you both with us. Let's start with your own backgrounds. Can you trace back what sparked your interest in science? Nicah, let's start with you if you don't mind. Were you always interested in biology? Nicah: I didn't think I would be really going into college to major in STEM until my junior and senior year of high school. I had a really great biology and genetics teachers. I'm just going to give a shout out to Mr.[Cadence 00:00:59] and Mr. [Dennison] from Cate School. I really enjoyed their classes, but at that point, after finishing up my classes, I didn't know how to further go into the STEM until I got an email in the middle of summer, from Travis actually saying, "Hey, so we see that you kind of fit what the type of students we're looking for for this mentor program slash cohort. Would you be interested in joining?" And then just kind of went from there. Patty: Travis, can you tell us briefly about the origins of your scientific background? Travis: Yeah, so as a kid, always interested in the sciences, I guess, the world. I went to college, and I went to Morehouse College with the idea that I would be pre-med, so that lasted about a week and a half, maybe. Patty: That long? Travis: That long. And then I met Dr. Bloomer, Larry Bloomer, and he taught ecology, environmental science, he still teaches there at Morehouse. And I got involved in his lab, worked with him for sophomore, junior, senior year and did a lot of summer programs and then went off to grad school to do a PhD also in biology, integrative biology. So I'm trained as a amphibian endocrinologist, and my lab advisor, PI there was, is Tyrone Hayes. So worked there, but at a certain point realized that I didn't want to stay in the sciences and it wasn't the lifestyle, the kind of work that I wanted to do. So I got an opportunity to work at Tufts University, started a center there for students interested in STEM. It was housed in the engineering school, and was there for four years, then came to Pomona to start the Quantitative Skills Center and also to enhance and keep the cohort programs. We were starting to expand in 2013 when I got here. And so I jumped in and said, "Hey, I can help lead this effort," and that's what I did. Mark: Tell us a little bit about your working relationship. I know Nicah, you heard from Travis before you got here, but how did you meet and how did that evolve into a mentor, mentee relationship? Nicah: I think the first time we actually met was my interview, right? Yeah. So after I applied, he emailed me saying, "Oh, we just want to have like a short interview." We got that going, and then after that, because that was like in the middle of the summer. So after that I completely forgot who Travis was. Patty: Ouch. Nicah: Until... Travis: That's okay. Mark: She'll never forget you now. Nicah: No, never now. And then I enrolled into Pomona and then I think it was the advisor, advisee lunch meeting. And then that was when I met the other members of my cohort and also our advisor and Travis. So we took over the QSC. That was like my first exposure to the space. Travis: Yeah. So it's an interesting program because I direct and oversee all the different cohorts, but each cohort also has a faculty mentor. And there are student mentors involved also, some semesters more than other semesters, they might be more active. Depends on the cohort, depends on the year and who we have. But so I get to know 50 to 60 out of the incoming class, that number of students. And some of them I get to know better than others, but they also, each cohort has its own faculty mentor as well. So I guess we structure things and we try to make it as structured as what makes sense, but we know that for first year students coming in, it's usually better to give a little bit more structure than less, because students might not know exactly what to do. So we kind of just tell you what to do and where to be. And they have a lot of lunches together. Nicah: Yeah. First year, I know we had lunch every single week and then that kind of decreased to every other week. Now no more official lunches together. That'll change. Travis: Yeah. We teach you how to fly and then we say, "Off you go," and you'll be fine. Nicah: Okay. Mark: So it becomes informal lunches, not formal lunches? Nicah: Yeah. Travis: Yeah. So I think students will come by in their junior and senior years just sort of as needed, and when it comes time for grad school applications or medical school applications or whatever's next, people come through and we talk about that. Patty: We started talking a little bit about it already, Travis, can you tell us a little bit more about the history of the QSC? How was it formed? What's the philosophy behind the center? Travis: So going back, probably around 2009 to 2010, somewhere around there, a group of faculty got together, and I won't try to name all of them because I know I'll forget somebody. But a group of faculty got together and they say, "Well, we don't have a quantitative skills, quantitative reasoning center. We have a writing center that's been very successful. And the counterpart to that, well it looks like it makes sense." Also at the same time, faculty were looking at how students were doing in like intro biology and chemistry courses, sort of the gateway courses into the STEM fields. And we saw differences based on gender, race, class, basically what was happening all across the country. Every school is dealing with this. And so Pomona said, "Well, we're going to write a grant to the Arthur Vining Davis Foundation," got the grant and now we need to hire somebody to create the center. Travis: And there was some good serendipity, and a person who knew someone here from where I was at Tufts, and I found out about the job application. Because I didn't actually know until it was very late and they had already interviewed people for the job. And so, I applied very quickly, interviewed, got the job, and then spent the first Spring 2013 just listening, just talking to students and faculty and staff. And then in the Fall 2013 we started with our tutoring program. So the main thrust of the QSC is to offer math and science tutoring for the entire campus. So any student that needs academic help in those disciplines that have a lot of numbers involved, or scientific reasoning, just come to the QSC. Travis: And then at the same time we were starting Pomona Science Scholars. We had been a Posse school at that point for a number of years. And then following year 2014 we started Pomona Scholars of Math. And so we've done a humanities cohort, we've had another program called HAP, which was another HHMI funded cohort program that ran for four years. So there was a lot happening in 2013, 2014. And the QSC became the home to all of that, all of that work. Mark: Nicah, how did you first hear about the QSC, and how'd you get involved? Nicah: Like I said, I got an email in the middle of the summer from Travis inviting me to apply to Pomona Scholars of Science cohort. It was because I noted on my college application, "I'm first gen, I'm low income and I'm interested in going into STEM," and I have no idea what any of that means and how that's going to go into college. But I actually wasn't, I didn't decide to apply until very last minute. So I think I was very lucky to get my application sent in on time and then get the interview. Then got the good like, "Congrats, you're in." Even at that point I was excited, but I still didn't really know what that meant. I just kind of thought it'd be like, oh yeah, you're just going to meet other people who are also into STEM. That'll be fun. It's like automatic friends, sort for the beginning. Nicah: And then, got to campus, I met other members of the cohort and then we all ended up congregated at the QSC and that was where I first started hearing about what exactly the QSC had to offer. And just hearing about it was, I felt very relieved to know that I would have a lot of support throughout my time at Pomona. Definitely took advantage of that support. Still taking advantage of that support. But I think... Yeah. Patty: And what type of resources were available to you through the QSC? Nicah: So I definitely utilized the one-on-one tutoring sessions. Those were like a really big help for when I was kind of, I was still, I mean I still am nervous to come up to professors. And I think that having a peer mentor really helped me be more open and be more willing to kind of ask questions and speak up when I'm confused. Nicah: And then I actually became a mentor myself for the Intro to Cell Biology class last spring and then I got to see that side, and that was a lot of fun. In terms of other resources offered, I've definitely even just like sitting down at the QSC and talking to Travis and Dylan who also works there, about all of my life problems. I feel like every semester I come in with a crisis, and I'm like, "Travis, what am I doing with my life? Am I premed?" So we figured out I'm not premed sophomore year, so now we're trying to answer if I'm interested in graduate school. So that's what we're navigating. Mark: Travis, can you explain how the QSC is structured? You've talked about this a little bit, but exactly how does it work? And what's your role as director? Travis: Yeah, so the part that Dylan Worcester, my assistant director that he is in charge of now that I used to be in charge of before he got here three years ago, is the tutoring program for the campus. So if any student needs help individual, one-on-one, we try to cover all of the STEM, intro STEM courses for sure but we do upper division courses as well. A lot of departments will have mentor sessions and so mentor sessions are a great help and people go and they're very important. But that's a group setting, and sometimes students want the one-on-one. So that's what we offer. So there's that part of it. Travis: The cohort aspect of it is I try to, like I say, sort of get to know as many of the students that I can and I work with the faculty to keep an eye on what the weekly meetings look like, and offer suggestions, offer help, I'll step in to run meetings when needed. But it's kind of, at this point, a lot of people have been involved for years and so we kind of know what's going. But we also have new people, new advisors, new mentors, and so yeah, I work with them just to make sure that the weekly lunches are being utilized in a way that makes sense for the students and they're getting what they need out of it. And it's all about teaching how to do college. So I don't know if you remember what we actually did your first semester in PSS, but Bloom's Taxonomy. Nicah: Oh yes, that was the very first meeting, I remember. Travis: Yes, so we do a lot of that. Study skills and time management, we'll bring on campus resource people, like folks from the CDO, we've done meeting at the KPC before, and try to just introduce them to campus and bring people to put a face to a name. And so there's that. Travis: And then I guess the last part of the QSC is just the space itself. And so people just are there, they hang out, they come through, and you know, sometimes we sit around and we talk about anything and everything that's going on. Sometimes it is life advice about, here's what you might want to think about for grad school, or not. But we try to make as welcoming a space where students can feel like they can just be themselves and... yeah. And eat our snacks and drink the water and print when they need and whatever it might be. So it's really turned into a nice sort of hub of activity on the second floor of the Smith Campus Center. Patty: Talk to us more about peer-to-peer tutoring, which is a big part of the QSC, and part questions for both of you. What does it look like? What is it and why is it important? And can you tell us about your experience on both sides of that peer-to-peer tutoring? Nicah: Yeah, so I guess I can start off by explaining the types of peer one-on-one tutoring. So the QSC has drop in hours where you don't need to make an appointment, and appointment hours where if you'd prefer it to be one-on-one and you for sure want it to be one-on-one, you can go ahead and book that mentor for an hour or a certain period of time. And I, like I said before, I really liked how those mentors were available to me for one-on-one help, because coming in, I was very hesitant to kind of reach out, especially in a group setting. Nicah: There was a little bit being afraid to kind of, "Oh, like I should know this, this is so simple and it looks like all my other classmates know this, but I don't know this." And it seemed to me that my peers were at step three and I was at like step negative one. So I just needed to get that basic background and information and the mentors that I've worked with have been very patient with me, they're really understanding of the fact that not everyone comes from the same background when coming into intro STEM classes, and no matter how many times I ask them to go over the same concept, they're always just willing to kind of go back and review. Travis: Yeah. Pomona, I mean we don't have graduate students here. When I was a grad student at Berkeley, I ran discussion session, which basically were like mentor sessions. And so we do, we rely on our undergrads a lot to do mentoring, TA-ing, being partners. And it's always amazing to me just how much the students seem to care. So I also will do trainings for mentors, and so last week I did a training for our physics mentors, and TA's. And they had already met over the summer and done a reading group all about inclusive pedagogy and how to be a better mentor and all of that stuff. And so my job was just sort of to guide them in discussion and remind them of some salient points for being a good mentor. But our students are amazing, and so we always hire 20 to 30, sometimes up to 40, depends on the semester, of our QSC partners. And yeah, we rely heavily on them. Do a great job. Mark: When we hear people talking about the QSC, a lot of it has to do with sort of community building and the sense that there's a real community there. Can you talk to us about that? Is that intentional to sort of build community? Travis: Yeah. I'll start, then you can say- Nicah: Go for it. Travis: Yeah. From the beginning that's one of the things that I heard when I got here, is just students feeling disconnected. And so they weren't getting what they needed out of mentor sessions, departments didn't feel like they could connect there. They were you know, hesitation about, "I can't talk to this faculty..." The intimidation, and so we created these cohorts. And the QSC, yeah, the biggest attempt is to try to create some sort of community within the STEM fields. And I think it's actually been pretty amazing to see the change over the years, not just with the QSC but even in academic departments. So like the math department has done a lot, even before I got here, in trying to build community. Physics now is trying to do some new things, CS is becoming... A lot more students are interested in CS, and so there are questions about building community. Travis: And so it's all a part of sort of the general idea on campus right now is the idea of we're a very diverse place, but how are we doing the equity? How are we doing the inclusion work, and making you feel like students actually can be successful? Not that they just can be successful here, but that they actually belong and are part of this community. So we're having those conversations now. But from the beginning that was sort of the point of the QSC, is we need a place where students can feel comfortable being vulnerable. Because if you're coming in and you don't know something, you're in a position of vulnerability. And the best way in my opinion to do that is to build relationships and have a supportive community, so students feel that they can be vulnerable and come in with their questions. And yeah, it's okay to say, "I don't know," and that feeling of being okay with saying I don't know something I feel like has permeated across campus in many ways. But from the beginning that was the idea. I don't know. How are we doing? Nicah: Doing really great. I mean, I remember my biggest fear the summer before I came into Pomona was, "Oh, how am I going to make friends? It's like high school all over again. Took me like two years to make friends in high school." But I think within the first night of me moving in here, I coincidentally met someone from my cohort section, we were just kind of like, "Hey, PSS?" "Yeah, PSS." So that was like an automatic bond. And I mean to this day we're both still really good friends. I think that throughout our lunch meetings when professors, we had chairs or at least professors from all of the STEM departments come in to our lunch meetings. So it was really nice to meet someone and interact with them face to face, because there was no classroom setting. Nicah: And I think that's the biggest intimidation factor, at least in my first year. Seeing them kind of sitting down with us eating lunch, they also had to go around and you know, "Introduce yourself, and what was your favorite book this summer," or something like that. I was kind of just like, you know those really awkward icebreakers that everyone kind of hates? I'm sorry, Travis. Travis: I know you all hate them, but we have to do them. Nicah: Yeah. And just like having to see us struggle, but also the professor we were talking to that day kind of like, "Oh gosh guys, I don't know," was like, "Okay, yeah, we feel you." And it's kind of like an automatic bond already, and that just made all of us so much more comfortable and more willing to interact with them. Which turned into when we ourselves became upperclassmen and started taking upper division classes, it was a lot easier to just interact with the professor and say, "Do you remember me and that one time that we all saw how you spilled macaroni on your t-shirt," or something. That one meeting. Patty: It humanizes them. Nicah: Yeah. Patty: Question for Travis: How does the QSC support first gen students, students of color and low incomes students? Travis: So for the cohorts, that's who we choose. And so each summer is different as far as how we put together a list of students that we will invite to be in a cohort. But in general it's usually first generation and or low income students, underrepresented minority students, so typically black, Latino or two or more races. We get that information as well. We get that from admissions and then when we reach out to those students. This year actually we've had more, and last year, more international students who are first generation college students. So we've added a few more international students into the mix. But that's who we knew was having the most difficulty with making it through those intro STEM courses, you know, back 2008, 9, 10, 11, 12, leading up until we made these cohorts, and so that's who we're working with. Travis: And so the idea is that we understand the landscape of K through 12 education in the United States. And if you're from a place where you didn't have the best preparation, the best high school experience, and I... You know, lots of stories about high schools that didn't have access to labs, and maybe the coach was teaching the chemistry class, and that can be okay, but the coach doesn't have a degree in chemistry. Things like that, and so we know students are coming in, into this very rigorous academic environment, and so that's who we focus on. And we will have students sometimes who are full pay, but they might be underrepresented in another way. But for the most part, the vast majority of our students are a part of the sort FLI community, first gen low income group. Travis: Yeah, and they're actually doing quite well. So one of the things that we've,, we just had an article, short piece come out in AAC&U talking about some of our successes for students, and retention from Chem 1A to Organic Chemistry, like moving through the curriculum is the highest for our cohort students. Grade achievement is up there, right? So we look at B minus or better grades. Our students are just, they're doing well academically and we didn't want students to leave the sciences because they didn't feel they could handle the academic work. And so, that's not happening, students might leave the sciences and that's okay, that's great. It's a Liberal Arts college, we want you to explore and try and find new things, but the sense that I don't belong, I can't do this work even though I still really want to, I'm going to choose something else, like we've tried to get rid of that as much as possible. Mark: Nicah, you've talked about this to some degree, but I'm going to throw this out again to give you a chance to kind of boil it all down. And that is, what has the QSC meant in your college career? How has it played a role on the academic side, and just on the life side? Nicah: So the QSC first introduced me to PSS, Pomona Scholars of Science, and it offered itself as a space where we were all invited to just hang out. We can do homework or we cannot, like we can talk to Travis about our life or we can just sit there. Overall it was just one of the very first welcoming spaces at Pomona, that I can think of right off the top of my head. I think it was the first official, not academic building but still academic centered place that I've entered, and I agree with what Travis said. It's like a little hub in the middle of SCC, second floor. And with what Travis was saying earlier, with keeping students who want to stay in STEM in STEM, I definitely felt that encouragement and support as I was navigating my first two years at Pomona. I think that had it not been for being a part of the cohort or knowing that the QSC and Travis was there, I would have probably ended up dropping my STEM major. Nicah: Because I remember it was the very first intro chem exam, did not do as well as I had hoped, and I was just like, "Oh gosh, wow, this is it. I got to go, I'm going to get kicked out of PSS." So I think I had mentally prepared myself to say goodbye to the group chat, like I don't think they're going to want me here at this point. But then I kind of like sat down, I talked about like, this class is really fun, I really like what I'm doing, I really like the friends I'm making through this class. I think these labs, time intensive but still so much fun and I get so much out of it. But the grade just says that I'm not doing that well. Nicah: And everyone was kind of just like, "No, stop. Don't click that 'drop class' button. Just think about how..." Yeah, they were just like, everyone, my cohort members and the professors that I reached out to, they just said like, "You shouldn't to get straight A's all of a sudden because, Pomona is hard and STEM is hard, but that doesn't mean that you can't do it. And just because you didn't get a grade as good as you had hoped, that doesn't mean that you're not fit or cut out for STEM life," as we've all started calling it. But yeah, I think just the continuous encouragement, especially last year I felt like I was kind of in a down mood because I realized that within like... So molecular biology has like equal parts of chem and bio in terms of the major requirements. And the way my schedule ended up working out was last year I wasn't able to take any bio classes, it was only chem. Nicah: And then that was the year where I was like, "I think I like bio more than chem," and being in that mindset of like organic chemistry all year was kind of... And then it was just, the material just wasn't clicking with me. And I don't think I just was as invested as I was in other topics. And so like, I feel like every month, once a month at least, I came into the QSC being like, "Should I drop this class?" Every time, Dylan and Travis were like, "No," so I was like, "Okay." And I made it and I'm here now. I'm taking molecular biology lab class for my major as well as biochemistry, I'm loving both of them. And I don't regret my decision to not drop STEM. Travis: That's good. Nicah: That was a really long story. Travis: Can I add one thing? Patty: Yeah please. Travis: So another thing that we try to encourage students to participate in is research. So we know that that's a high impact practice. And so along with the close advising, relationships with faculty and with other mentors, research will keep students in STEM in a way that other ones might not because it just, it lets you see how the work is actually done. And so we encourage students to do research here on campus but we also support students to go off and do it other places during the summer. And I know that you've been to where? Nicah: Tufts. Travis: Yeah you went to Tufts to do some research. Maybe you could talk a little about that experience and your thinking about STEM after that. Nicah: Yeah, so I think coming in, the perception I had about being a STEM major just in general was that you're either pre-med or nothing or not. Nothing. It was like a big question mark and I don't like things that I don't know about. So I was like, okay, I guess I'm pre-med. I joined the bandwagon and like Travis, it was like a week and a half in where I was like, oh yeah, maybe not. But then at that point I was hit with a, there's like a fork in the road and it's like I don't, I can force myself to continue being pre-med or I can try to figure out what happens. And then it just so happened that one of our cohort meetings was professor Lou coming in from the chemistry department. And she told us about the variety of undergraduate research programs at Tufts University because I think she had worked there in the past. Nicah: So she had the connections and I was interested. I think that I didn't sign up because I was like, oh yes, research, I love that and that's what I want to do. It was more just like, I didn't really know what else I would do over it. It was either that or it was either do research or just hang out and stay at home over the summer. Both were really good options, but I think again what motivated me to continue and apply to the research program at Tufts was because two other members from my cohort were also planning on applying, and we actually all ended up going there together in the end. So the program that I was in, is called building diversity in the biomedical sciences and it was conducted at the Sackler Graduate School, which is like the medical and graduate schools associated with Tufts, so it wasn't like I was on Tufts campus. Nicah: But that was my first true exposure to research I think, because intro bio and intro chem labs were a lot of fun, but they're lab classes, so it's like you should know what answers you're going to expect coming out of it. Whereas in lab it was like, okay, it's up to you to troubleshoot everything. And I remember being so nervous, like oh man, this is it. But I had a really great experience. I think that was what really started off with me saying, I think I really like research and I think this is what I want to continue with my life. I was like, just like that, that question mark turned into grad school, except now it's grad school or another question mark but that's related. Travis: We have a great partnership with Tufts, we've been sending students there for years and we also have one with City of Hope here in Southern California. And so we send four students there to get a different kind of research experience. It's not a college campus, but they're doing some intense work. So we push research and we encourage students, especially after their first year because again, we know that that's going to keep people more interested in STEM and it's a big high impact practice. Yeah. Patty: Deciding on a major can be difficult as we know or remember. And you talked a little bit about the life coaching sessions that happen at KC, Travis. How do you coach and support students who are interested in STEM fields? Travis: I mean what I might say, I don't know if I said this directly to you, but just pick something. I mean. Nicah: You definitely told me that. Travis: So, one it's like yeah, you need to choose something, choose a major. But is your job going to directly line up with whatever you choose for your majors? No, we know that's not exactly how it works now. And you should get very technical and very focused on one particular thing. But most people coming out of Pomona are going to have very diverse careers and different pathways and their major is important, but it's not everything. And the other thing, the reason why I say just pick something is because our students are so capable and so smart and so driven that you are able to almost just pick anything and you excel and if you have the right support. So that's the way I look at it, is if you like molecular biology, do molecular biology. If you like chemistry, you just do chemistry. Travis: If you want to do classics but still go to medical school, you can do that, right? You can do that at Pomona. And so I guess the mentor and the process, it's I talk a lot about what are you interested in, right? Forget about your major. What do you actually want to do? What are you good at? What do you think that you're good at? What do you think someone will value in the future enough to pay you some money to do that thing, right? And so the trick is to try to align all of those things together and then some major will reveal itself. But that's, again, not the end all be all of everything. So yeah, I try to turn it back to the students as much as possible and say, well, what did you want to do? Travis: What do you want your day to day look like? Do you want to be in a lab? Do you want to be in front of a class? Do you want to teach? Do you want to work in industry? Do you want to, I don't know. Write a nonprofit, like whatever it is, think about it that way and then just choose something you're really interested in, you will do better in that thing and you'll be fine. And so it's a lot of reassuring about the future because I think a lot of students, correct me if I'm wrong, but there're some fear and trepidation about life after Pomona. Because everything is here for you now we feed you, house you, take care of you and academically outside the classroom. Then you graduate and it's like now you're off on your own and there might be some fear there. So I try to say it's going to be okay, you will find a job, you will be okay. Mark: We've been talking about mentorship and in a lot of cases it gets to be a synonym for encouragement, but it's not all kumbaya, right? I mean it's also about some tough love. And have there been times when Travis has had to tell you things you didn't want to hear? Travis: That's a good question. Nicah: Oh, well not things that I didn't want to hear, but things that I definitely know that I needed to hear where like, oh, it's going to be okay. Right? Or just when I think we had this discussion recently, it was like, Oh, you should start focusing academically instead of saying yes to all these extracurriculars, put your classes first. Now maybe hopefully. And I'm just, oh and when I was going through my major dilemma, I definitely got the just pick something speech. And I remember, I think I was a first semester sophomore year and you said just pick something. And I was like, that was not helpful, Travis, I'm supposed to be narrowing it down, just picking something. But I think that the encouragement and the support that I've received or things that I've needed to advance me through my STEM career and STEM life at Pomona and if I... I think the worst thing I've had to hear was Oh, just study more. Yes. Yeah. I'll study more. Travis: Did I tell you that? Nicah: No, probably not. Travis: Well, I think, so one of the thing about mentoring is you'll have multiple mentors, right? And so you will get different things from different people. And so the QSC and so that space I try to keep as light and positive. And I'm not trying to add any stress because I know you're stressed out already, right? With all the work you have to do. And so I might be a little less tough love that approach, but you might need that. And so you might get that from a faculty member. Like whoever your academic advisor is might push you more in that way or whoever your thesis advisor ends up being that sort of thing. But so I think that yeah, you have multiple people that give you different kinds of mentoring and also peer mentors too. Like they'll give you another point of view from the student, near peer, their experience. Patty: Yeah, it's like a good mentor, bad mentor dynamic. Travis: No. But I think that's a challenge though especially, what I've heard from some faculty is how do you you push students when you feel like they might not be giving their best work and you know they can do more, do better. But there might be some hesitation because of whatever is in between that relationship. And that could be, it could be class, it could be gender, it could be race, it could be those kinds of things. And so a faculty member might be less likely to say something in a certain way to some students and not push when they maybe should push a little bit more. So those are tricky things, but yeah, you'll get different kinds of love from different people on this campus. And that's what you should do when you're trying to find a mentor. You don't just have just one. You have multiple people. Yeah. Patty: Question for both of you. What have you learned from each other? Nicah: Just pick a major. Patty: That's it? You got to add Bloom's taxonomy in there. Nicah: Yeah. Bloom's taxonomy. Travis: Blooms taxonomy. Nicah: No, I think definitely when I first wasn't sure about medical school versus graduate school, I sat down with Travis and he laid down his, your path and told me, you were honest. He was just like, look, if you want to go into pre-med, you're going to have to expect this and this is probably what's going to end up happening. This is what I went through when I went through grad school and this is, and like look where I am now. There's just look at it all like these different opportunities. I think the biggest thing that I am still taking away from you is that, it'll be okay, I'll find something to do and it'll most likely be something that I really love, that I am prepared to take on what's coming both while I'm at Pomona and after I graduated at Pomona. And that he's there for support whenever I need someone else to go to, like whenever I need to go to him again for another life crisis or just life. Travis: I mean I think I take away from Nicah and other students too is just that energy. You walk into the QSC even if things might be stressful or whatever, you usually have a smile on your face, right? And you bring that positivity with you, and so for me it's a reminder I might be caught up in something I'm dealing with on campus or whatever, but why are we here? We're here to work with you, right? And to try to make you as successful and happy and send you out into the world to fix all the problems that exist. Right? Patty: No pressure. Travis: No pressure at all. But you, yeah, I think in particular you bring that ray of sunshine with you even in stressful times and it's a good reminder to be like, you know what? Yeah, it will be okay and let's talk and let's laugh and let's joke. And then hopefully you leave feeling a little bit better than when you showed up. Nicah: A lot like decompress, be like okay, I got this. Travis: And so yes, that's what we're trying to do. And yeah. Mark: Nicah, tell us in, let's take a step back and look at your whole academic career here so far. How has it been? Has it been what you expected? Nicah: Oh definitely not. I think like in high school I was like, I got the straight A's and I was very proud of that. And then I also, I mean people at high school told me you, I went to a boarding school so they, my college counselor told me Kate School really prepares you for college out there. So I came in being like, yeah, I can do this. Then I walk into my intro chem class and I was like, I do not got this. But I think that it's been a really, it's been definitely been like a really enlightening journey I had originally come in thinking, oh maybe I'll be a chem major and I am not a chem major. I really found my love for biology. Nicah: I think that my, I don't know, I just think about my time at Pomona. It's definitely had its ups and downs, had a roller coaster and I think through it all, I had my cohort members with me, I had Travis with me, I had the QSC with me, I had all of my mentors, both academic related and not academic related. And I think that when I'm celebrating something, they're celebrating it with me, when I'm in not the best mood, they're there to uplift me and encourage and motivate me and tell me that things happen. But no matter what, you got this. And now I think I'm as an upperclassmen myself. Oh, it feels really weird. Sorry. Oh, I'm the upperclassmen now. I'm the mentor now, it just feels really surreal seeing all of these first years and these new cohort members go up to me and say, so how did you pick your major? Just pick something. Nicah: Yeah, yeah. I just, two years ago I was the one asking my peer mentors that, and even that started even last year because I was a lab TA for one of the cohort sections. And just one day were asking me, oh like what major are you? How did you end up that major? How did you end up being mobile versus bio or just chem or even just or even neuro. And seeing people rely and look up to me the same way that I relied and looked up to my mentors and still do, it really reminds me that we're all in this together, that we're all here to support each other and that I have a family at Pomona. Patty: You mentioned your academic side of Pomona. Are there other things are you involved on campus? Nicah: So on campus I work for the office of parent and alumni engagement as a star 47 agent. So if you hear, if any alums who are, who I was going to say watching, but who are listening to this, please pick up the phone. Patty: Pick up the phone. Nicah: Maybe you'll get to talk to me. Mark: It might be Nicah on the phone. Nicah: Exactly. Patty: It's Nicah calling pickup people. Nicah: Yeah. Something like hello. I will smile and dial. Yeah. So I'm involved in star 47. This year I am working at the Asian American resource center, so for short known as the ARRC as one of their interns. And I am also involved in the executive board of Kasama, which is the Philippine ex club on campus. Mark: So Travis what's next for the QFC? Travis: Well, the nearest thing is we're expanding space. So that's one thing is we don't have a lot of space how are we are, we have three study rooms that are always being used. Nicah: It's like a battle. Travis: And yeah, it's kind of that, and it's funny because every year the new first years come in and they think that that's their space. Nicah: No. Travis: But then the second, third, fourth year is like, wait a minute, we've been here. Nicah: Wait a second. Travis: And so there's some tough wars, but there's a house over on eighth in college. It might be some satellite office for the QSC. There's that, there's the idea of trying to expand cohort. So every year we talk about this, because we are limited in how many spots we have. Because it's time intensive from our faculty and it's just resource limitations, catering lunches for so many groups every week, it gets expensive. So we will love to do more and then we'll see. Ideally it'd be great for any student who was looking for like a group advising situation, that's like a cohort to have that option. If everyone could do it, that'd be really cool. So we're talking about that. I spend my time meeting to meeting, running around and then when I'm at the QSC, students coming by, dropping in to see me. So there's a lot of really good data that we have that I haven't had a chance to really sit down and write up and get out there. Travis: I was actually thinking today, maybe I should just hire someone who's job is just to write articles and submit them for publication. Because we've got a lot there, we're doing some really some awesome work. So that's where we are with the QSC, we'll keep it going, try to keep the snacks stocked and the printer working, had some printer issues this morning. But continue to always and always checking in with students and saying how's it going for you? Is there anything we can do differently here to make this more welcoming space, that sort of thing. Patty: Nicah as an upper class. Do you have any sense of your plans after Pomona? Nicah: See, this is why I came to Travis a week ago. Right now I am thinking about going to graduate school. More recently I think that's so, I think so. Okay. I'll just timeline it all out. I think starting from after I finished research at Tufts until maybe about two months ago, I thought I was totally set into going into graduate school for biochemistry or structural biology. I worked with proteins that are crystallized and we shoot x-ray beams at them and the data we get from that, we can solve their structure. So it's a lot of fun and I had a lot of fun in the labs that I worked at, but now more recently I'm thinking about the possibility of public health. So two pretty different things, although I feel like Travis will say, oh, just pick one. Patty: Just pick one. Travis: Let me just clarify that. Just pick one that you love. That's what we're trying to get to that point where you can recognize what you really want to do. And then when you get there and then it's easy to choose. Nicah: That's true. Yeah. So thinking about one of those two things maybe, I mean I've also thought about becoming a teacher for maybe couple minutes here and there and it's just like a lingering thought. So it's definitely, I definitely still have a lot of soul searching to do, career searching to do, but I think that maybe after five more life crisis sessions with Travis, I'll figure it out. Travis: For sure. Mark: So for both of you a final question here, what advice would you have for high school students who are considering STEM fields in college? Travis: You want to go first? Nicah: You. Travis: I would say typically the advice is take the most rigorous courses that are available where you are at your high school. All right. So if I have an option for AP and IB and all those things, do that. And that's good advice too. But I would add, try to figure out, yeah, you have to figure out who you are as a person. You're not going to know all of that in high school. And part of the coming to college is to figure that out. But you can start that process and you can start to think about, well what is it that I'm actually interested in? Sometimes I do talk to high school students and I would say, if you just went, if I said go to the library right now and you get two hours, go look up whatever you want, where do you go? What section do you go to? What books are you pulling off the shelf? Travis: Be intentional about that and thinking about those kinds of things. And then yeah, get straight A's and you can end up at Pomona. But if you start that process then, then you'll have a better idea of, so okay, where am I going to, what direction I'll go in college. Not necessarily what I'll choose for my major or anything, but I'm going to head in this direction because I know I like whatever it is and just go with it. Yeah, that's nice advice. Nicah: I think my advice too, and this is for high school students thinking about going into STEM, right? It would be to expect failure. I think right off the bat, coming in from like good grades in high school and everyone who comes to Pomona has good grades. So it's not, it's definitely not of the same caliber and I was very thrown off by that. So I didn't expect failure. So when failures happen, and they will inevitably happen, it was a big setback because it was just like you question everything about yourself and you're like, is this really my place? The answer to that will always be yes. And in lab, in the class you can expect a failure. I remember when my working in Tufts lab, when my very first experiment failed, I was like, oh, I guess they're going to fire me, I got to find a plane back to California. Nicah: But no, I think that, your mentors and your professors, they all expect you to make mistakes and that's why they're there to help you, guide you through those mistakes, and to let you know that you're not the only one for making that mistake. Other people have made that mistake before you in the past and you will continue to make mistakes in the future, but you shouldn't think of those as a setback because at the end of the day, I think we all survive what we've gone through. And we'll get through this one too. Mark: So on that note, we're going to wrap this up. Our thanks to Nicah VIN Theresa, class of 2021 and Travis Brown, director of Pomona's quantitative skills center. Patty: Thank you both. And to all who have stuck with us this far. Thanks for listening to Sagecast, the podcast of Pomona college. Until next time.